Nolan Bushnell, founder of Atari and Chuck E. Cheese along with a couple dozen other companies, is no stranger to managing people. He was one of Steve Jobs' only bosses. Reining in creative talent and retaining it is a long-nurtured skill of Bushnell's, and his new book,Finding the Next Steve Jobs, aims to teach others how to

    Bushnell's advice often seems counterintuitive. Who would want to "hire the obnoxious," "ignore the credentials," "celebrate failure," and "encourage ADHD?" But as Bushnell's book progresses, he offers a concept of a workplace that encourages bold behavior and stimulates employees' minds. What follows is an edited transcript of Fortune's interview with the man behind the book.

Fortune: Why write a book in the first place?

Nolan Bushnell: Well, being an engineer, I was always comfortable with mathematics and physics, but I was always dyslexic and a horrible speller. So the idea of writing a book was not one that was in my wheelhouse. I started this thing with brain science. It says, "Do things that you don't think you can do. Stay uncomfortable." So I listed a bunch of things that I thought were not in my wheelhouse, including "write a book."

And what made you choose the subject matter that you did?

I actually started by writing a science fiction book, and I went to start the publishing process, and the fellow that I started getting involved with said, "You know, Nolan, you should do your first book as non-fiction, say, a business book." And he thought that since I was the only person to ever give Steve Jobs a job that would be a good title for my first book. He thought that talking about creativity in the context of Steve would be an excellent business book.

It seems like many of the tips you give seem counter to traditional management guidance. Can you tell me more about how you developed your own management style?

When Atari started, we had no money, no factories. It was early enough that there was virtually no venture capital in the area, so we had to bootstrap. Even though we came up with the video game, there were companies in Chicago that had massive resources compared to us. So our only real asset, I decided, was that we had to outmaneuver and out-innovate them. The creative culture became not just a matter of interest but a matter of survivability because we were outgunned on every other issue. And because of our creativity, we were ultimately able to dominate not just the coin-operated game business but the consumer business as well. And it was all because of creative methodology. It became part of the DNA of the company.

It seems that this kind of thinking is something that a lot of startups relate to these days, but at the time, Atari was on its own.

And then because Steve Jobs and Wozniak both worked at Atari, they took a lot of those precepts to Apple (AAPL). All of a sudden, Apple and Atari were the ones who were really kicking butt in the valley, and a lot of people looking at that and thinking, "We should really adopt some of these things."   

    诺兰•布什内尔这个名字对于管理人员来说并不陌生。他创立了电子游戏公司雅达利（Atari）、儿童娱乐餐饮连锁企业查理芝士（Chuck E. Cheese）以及其他二十几家公司。他是史蒂夫•乔布斯屈指可数的老上司之一。掌握创造型人才并留住他们是布什内尔久经磨练的一项能力，而他的新书《发现下一个史蒂夫•乔布斯》就是要告诉别人怎样做到这一点。

    布什内尔的建议往往显得有悖于人们的直觉，比如“聘用那些讨人厌的家伙”，“别去管什么文凭”，“失败时要庆祝”以及“要鼓励注意力缺陷多动症吗？”但随着书的内容向前推进，布什内尔向读者介绍了一种鼓励大胆行为、激活员工思维的工作理念。以下是本刊在该书出版后对布什内尔的采访。

《财富》：当初为什么要写书呢？

诺兰•布什内尔：身为一名工程师，我在数学和物理方面总是游刃有余。但我有阅读障碍，在单词拼写方面也很糟糕。所以写书这个主意对我来说并不合适。我从脑科学入手，它是这样说的：“去做那些你觉得自己做不了的事。让自己一直觉得别扭。”就这样，我列出了一系列我觉得不适合自己做的事，包括“写书”。

是什么促使你选择了这个主题？

实际上，刚开始我想写一本科幻小说。和出版社接触后，帮我出书的那位仁兄说：“你知道吗诺兰，你的第一本书应该是非文学类作品，比如说，一本商业题材的书。”他觉得既然我是唯一一个曾经聘用过史蒂夫•乔布斯的人，这对我的第一本书来说应该是个好题目。他还觉得以史蒂夫为例来探讨创造性是一本商业题材书籍的绝佳素材。

你的许多建议似乎都有悖于传统的管理观念。能谈谈你的管理风格是怎样形成的吗？

雅达利成立后，我们一无资金，二无工厂。那个年代过于久远，连风险投资都没有，所以我们不得不自立更生。虽然我们做出了游戏，但芝加哥的一些公司所拥有的资源远远超过我们。所以我就想，我们真正的资产只有过人的谋略和创新。创造性文化对我们来说不仅重要，而且是一种生存能力，因为在其他方面别人都比我们强。依靠创造性，我们最终不光得以主宰街机游戏市场，还成了家用游戏机市场的主导者。这一切都要归功于我们的创造性方法，而它也变成了雅达利基因的一部分。

现在，许多初创型公司似乎都在向这样的思路靠拢，但在那个时候，这样做的只有雅达利。

当时史蒂夫•乔布斯和沃兹尼亚克都在雅达利，所以他们把雅达利的许多准则都带到了苹果公司（Apple）。突然之间，苹果和雅达利成了硅谷里面真正称得上酷的公司，许多人看到这种局面后就想到：“我们确实应该效仿这样的做法。”  

You give some advice in the book to "hire the obnoxious" and "hire the crazy." Has that backfired for you?

People who are obnoxious for obnoxious' sake, no company needs them. But a lot of times, people who are very arrogant are obnoxious, and the company needs to be able to find a place for those people, and somehow isolate them from the mainstream so their obnoxiousness doesn't become pernicious. Sometimes when you've got a technical problem and the smartest guy in the room happens to be obnoxious, you really want him on your team.

Apple is famous for its strict culture and secrecy. Do you think Steve Jobs warped some of your ideas?

Oh I'm sure they did. In fact, I know they did. The real issue is secrecy can be a tool, but at the same time, I think that there's too much secrecy. I think that Apple's too secretive compared to Google (GOOG), which is quite open about the projects it's working on. And what actually happens when you're more open is you get help from strange sources that Apple isn't getting the benefit of.

Do you feel that other books published about Steve Jobs have been pretty accurate from what you remember?

I think that whenever you have a person, they become a composite of all the things that are written about them, and I don't think there are any gross inaccuracies that I've seen. I think a lot times it's a matter of nuance, of emphasis. I thought that my personal relationship with him would fill in some of the pieces to get a complete view of the man.

In your book, you talk about how you would allow employees to sleep at work. That idea has spread to many different companies. Do you think that sort of thinking might interfere with work/home life balance?

The problem with today's work is that there's a blurring distinction between my time and the company's time. NASA did a whole bunch of studies on the benefits of a nap. It was tremendously rejuvenating, and in some cases it can double your productivity in the afternoon time if you take a 20-minute nap after lunch.

I think the whole ethos of running a good company is to be fair. Don't chew up people's free time. It's just wrong, and it's counterproductive because now most of us are knowledge workers, and the most important thing is perspective. And if you're working all the time, you lose perspective very, very quickly.

Would you say from your time at Atari and moving forward to your other companies, did your management style evolve?

Oh yeah. It definitely evolved and got somewhat more sophisticated. But my core principles stayed pretty consistent throughout that period of time.

What are those core principles?

Treat employees like adults. Focus on outcomes not process. Hire people for intensity not necessarily credentials. Some of the best engineers I've had were self-trained. A couple of them never completed high school let alone college. I think that the main thing to do is get creative, happy people. If your people aren't happy, then they aren't very good. A properly managed company can keep people happy. I always tried to focus on that. "Happy" has nothing to do with how much or how little people work. It has to do with respect and clear tasking, and being involved in projects that they can be proud of.

你在这本书里建议“聘用那些讨人厌的家伙”和“那些疯狂的家伙”。这对你有什么反作用吗？

有些人是因为烦人而遭人讨厌，没有哪家公司需要这样的人。但很多情况下，非常高傲的人也很讨人厌，而公司要能为这种人找到容身之处，并且多多少少要把他们和主流体系隔离开来，这样他们身上令人讨厌的地方就不会带来危害。有时候 ，出了技术问题，而你身边最聪明的人恰好是那个惹人讨厌的家伙，你会真心希望他是你的团队成员。

苹果公司以严格和保密著称。你觉得史蒂夫•乔布斯是不是扭曲了你的一些想法吗？

我觉得确实如此。实际上，我知道他们扭曲了我的想法。真正的问题在于，秘密可以成为一种工具，但我也觉得他们的秘密太多了。我觉得和谷歌（Google）相比，苹果过于遮遮掩掩，谷歌对自己正在进行的项目则相当开放。实际上，变得开放以后，你会得到一些意想不到的帮助，而苹果在这方面一直都没有得到什么好处。

你觉得其他关于史蒂夫•乔布斯的书和你的记忆吻合吗？

我觉得只要提到某个人，所有文章中提到他们的事情就都会涌现出来。我想我没有看到什么大的偏差，很多时候都是细节上或者侧重点的问题。我想我和他的私人关系能填补一些空白点，让人们看到一个完整的乔布斯。

你在书里谈到了哪些情况下你会允许员工在上班时间睡觉。这个观念已经进入了许多不同的公司。你认为这样的想法会不会影响工作和家庭生活之间的平衡呢？

如今在工作方面的一个问题是私人时间和工作时间界线不明。美国宇航局（NASA）对打盹的好处做了大量研究。它能让人重新精神焕发，有时候在午饭后小睡20分钟能让整个下午的工作效率倍增。

我觉得经营一家好公司的根本就是要公平。不要去打扰别人的自由时间。这么干绝对是错的，会降低效率，原因是现在我们中的大多数人都是脑力劳动者，最重要的就是工作态度。如果总是在做事情，工作态度就会非常、非常迅速地偏离正确的方向。

从雅达利到其他公司，你觉得自己的管理风格有什么发展变化吗？

当然有变化。它肯定经历了发展变化，而且多多少少变得更完善了。但在这期间，我的核心准则一直都相当统一。

这些核心准则是什么？

把员工当成年人对待。注重结果而不是过程。以能力取人，而不是那些必需的文凭。在我用过的最好的工程师中，有些人是自学成才。其中有几个甚至都连高中都没有毕业，更不用说大学了。我觉得主要是要聘用那些有创造力、心态快乐的人。如果不快乐，他们就不会非常优秀。一家管理合理的公司能让人们保持愉悦的心情。我一直都在想办法把重心放在这方面。“快乐”和人们做多少工作无关。和它有关的因素包括尊重、分工明确以及参与让自己感到骄傲的项目。

You talk about how dropouts can play a big role in entrepreneurship. What role do you think education should play in business?

One of the big problems with education today is it's too much of a trailer; it's too far behind where industry is. The very nature of academia is it's slow to change. That means it's falling further and further away from the marketplace. So the relevance of a higher education is not useful. It's not targeted. So a passionate, energetic person who is on a self-training path is going to be much more current and much more valuable than somebody who has a Ph.D. in computer science. And shame on the schools.

Your company BrainRush is educationally focused, isn't it?

It is. We're trying to make it so we can fix and plug a lot of the holes in education by accelerating a lot of the aspects of what people learn. In our alpha test, we've been able to prove 10x acceleration, and that's really remarkable.

How does it work exactly?

The idea is that you have a piece of software that does timing and follows some principles that are really, really powerful.

From what I understand, it's education taught through games?

Some game principles, not so much games, per se. We're creating these templates where teachers can put their lessons into it and get this acceleration factor. And it's based on some very serious brain science.

What got you interested in developing a business around that?

I've noticed how much people can learn from game play. And I've got eight kids, so I've been in the education world as a consumer of education. And I've been understanding and feeling how much better we could be doing if we just took a little more understanding of the brain science behind schooling and learning. Unfortunately, schools are mired in the metrics of the 1800s, and I think that's wrong.

What has it been like raising eight kids?

Delightful. It's the best thing I could have ever done with my life.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you now?

I just turned 70. Boy, that sounds old. I'm still looking out at the world through eyes of a 14-year-old.

Well it sounds like you're staying very, very busy.

I can't tell the difference between work and play, so, retiring, I don't know what that would be.

你说辍学的人能在创业领域发挥很大作用。那么你觉得教育应该在商业领域发挥什么样的作用呢？

当前教育的一大问题是它过于落后，和企业界的差距过大。学术圈的根本特性就是它变化缓慢。也就是说它和市场越来越脱节。这就让高等教育变得没用。它缺乏目标。因此，一个充满热情、活力十足的自学者和现实的联系程度以及他的价值都会远远超过一个计算机学博士。如今的教育真丢人。

你的公司BrainRush的业务重点就是教育，对吗？

对。我们争取做到这一点，这样我们就能在许多方面加快人们的学习速度，从而纠正教育出现的问题，同时填补教育的漏洞。在我们的内部测试中，我们已经能证明学习速度可以提高10倍，这一点真的很了不起。

你们具体是怎么做的呢？

我们的思路是用一个软件来掌握时间，同时遵循一些确实非常有效的原则。

据我所知，它的教育方式就是游戏，对吧？

本质上是一些游戏规则，游戏并不多。老师们可以把他们的授课内容放到我们制作的模板里，然后使用加速功能。我们的工作立足于非常严肃的脑科学。

是什么让你对建立这样一家公司感兴趣的呢？

我知道人们能在游戏中学到多少东西。我有八个孩子，所以作为教育消费者我一直都没有离开过教育领域。我知道而且也感觉到，如果我们对隐藏在教与学背后的脑科学再多一点点了解的话，情况就能得到极大的改善。可惜的是，教育界仍紧抱着19世纪的制度不放，我觉得这样不对。

养活八个孩子是什么感觉？

很高兴。这是我这辈子做过的最棒的事。

如果你不介意的话，能问一下你现在多大了吗？

我刚刚70岁。嗯，听上去很老了，但我观察世界的双眼仍然只有14岁。

听起来你好像一直都非常非常忙。

我不知道工作和娱乐有什么区别，所以，我也不知道退休为何物。（财富中文网）

译者：Charlie