明迪·格罗斯曼

HSN首席执行官

    早年我在耐克（Nike）工作时，总是抱怨团队中有人表现不佳，我努力改善这种情况。最后，（耐克的共同创始人和董事长）菲尔·奈特对我说：“明迪，你的重点不是如何让普通人变得出色。你需要招聘出色的人。”当今世界，人才对于企业成功至关重要，包括他们的核心竞争力以及他们与企业文化的契合度。组合得好，很可能效果斐然。但前提是要招对人。

Mindy Grossman

CEO of HSN

    When I was at Nike, I was bemoaning the fact that somebody on my team wasn't performing -- and I was trying to get him to perform better. Finally, Phil Knight [Nike co-founder and chairman] said to me, "Mindy, what you really have to focus on is not trying to make ordinary people extraordinary. You need to hire extraordinary people." In today's world, talent is so critical to the success of what you're doing -- their core competencies and how well they fit into your office culture. The combination can be, well, extraordinary. But only if you bring in the right people.

杰克·博格

先锋集团创始人及退休首席执行官

    年轻时我曾是费城一家小经纪公司的跑腿员，从一家小经纪公司将证券送到另一家。有一位跑腿员看着我说：“博格，我得告诉你，你需要了解投资业务的方方面面。”我说：“瑞，你说的是什么意思?”他说：“小人物永远一无所知。”事实证明瑞说的没错。人们说，这个市场有伟大的投资者，但这有很大的偶然性。我们谁也聪明不过市场。

Jack Bogle

Founder and retired CEO of the Vanguard group

    I was a runner for a little brokerage firm here in Philadelphia, delivering securities from one little brokerage firm to another. One of the other runners looked at me and he said, "Bogle, I'm gonna tell you everything you need to know about the investment business." And I said, "What's that, Ray?" And he said, "Nobody knows nuthin'." And it turns out, Ray was right. People say there are great performers out there, but it's a lot of randomness. None of us are smarter than the markets.

道格·帕克

合众国航空首席执行官

    就我而言，不一定是言语建议，我得到的更多是榜样建议。这个榜样就是【前西南航空（Southwest Airlines）首席执行官】赫伯·凯勒赫，我认识他已有10多年了。知道他做得很好，和他在一起时，我留意观察，潜移默化地学习。他非常善于倾听，也确实教过我，倾听自己的员工有多么重要。如果你看到工作中的赫伯，一定会留下深刻印象。他非常专注，都不会留心屋里还有谁。这不是基于什么原则；他就是这样。

    我尝试着举行座谈会，与员工对话，而不是我站在1,000人面前侃侃而谈。每个月有4次，我会和三、四十名飞行员和空乘人员开会，我说10分钟，然后他们说50分钟。这样的倾听不完全是出于尊重——实在是没有比这更好的工作方式了。当你领导一家像航空公司这样的大企业时，有很多东西你可能都不会注意到，因此必须从倾听开始。然后，才能决定正确的方式是什么。

    作为倾听者我还远远赶不上赫伯。但昨天我们有一次这样的会议，有位乘客告诉我，她在换登机牌时被告知机上舱位只剩头等舱。与她同行的是一个10岁的孩子，这个年龄的孩子不能坐头等舱，结果导致他们不能上飞机。我觉得这种做法不对。我甚至都不知道我们还有这样的规定，需要改变这种情况。

Doug Parker

CEO of US Airways

    In my case it's not necessarily words of advice, but more advice I received through example. The example is Herb Kelleher [former CEO of Southwest Airlines], who I've gotten to know over the last 10 years. Knowing how great he's done, I've tried to hang out and watch and learn through osmosis. He is so good at listening, and has really taught me how important it is to listen to your employees. If you watch Herb in action, it really is phenomenal. He is completely engaged and never looks over your shoulders to see who else is in the room. It's not out of principle; it's just who he is.

    I try really hard now to have forums that allow employees to talk to me, rather than me being in front of 1,000 people. Four times a month, I put myself in a room with 30 or 40 pilots and flight attendants, and I talk for 10 minutes; they talk for 50. It's not just listening out of respect -- you can't imagine how much better you can do your job when you operate this way. When you're leading a big organization like an airline, there's a whole lot you can miss, so you have to start by listening to people. Then you can decide what the right course is.

    I'm nowhere near where Herb is as a listener yet, but just yesterday, we had one of these meetings and someone told me about going to check in and all we had available was first class. She was traveling with her 10-year-old, and he wasn't allowed in first, so they couldn't fly. I don't think that's right. I didn't even know we had that policy, so it's going to change.

J.C. Penney首席执行官

    我是1984年从哈佛商学院（Harvard Business School）毕业的。毕业时就业机会很多，我有不少选择。我当时犹豫的是去高盛（Goldman Sachs），还是Mervyn's，后者的工资只是前者的三分之一。因此，我和父亲谈了一回。他曾在通用磨坊（General Mills）工作。他说：“我遇到过的所有伟大的管理者，年轻时几乎都是从这个行业起步，学习业务的方方面面。几乎所有人都是从底层做起。”

    简单的选择当然是去一家投资银行。即刻获得令人尊敬的社会地位、丰厚的薪酬和回报。我的父亲说：“你可以这样做，但很快你就会想做点别的什么了。如果你打算做好一件事，就需要从底层学起。成功没有捷径。”

    零售业变化很快，就像体育一样。我本来还可以去Dayton Hudson（当时Mervyn's的母公司）从事战略规划工作，但我心想：“不行，我想学业务。”因此，我的第一份工作是在Glendale（做店面管理培训生）。今天，同样的经验也适用于我做的每件事，不管是塔吉特（Target）的出色设计，还是打造苹果（Apple）商店。凡事没有捷径。

    我记得在苹果处于低谷时期，我并没有像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样感受到极大的痛苦。处在领导岗位时，困难时期尤其难熬，因为你需要带领整个团队渡过困难时期，决不能走捷径。我们正在着眼于下个世纪打造J.C. Penney，而不是下一个季度或下一年。

Ron Johnson

CEO of J.C. Penney

    I graduated from Harvard Business School in 1984. Jobs were abundant, and I had many choices. I was torn between going to work at Goldman Sachs and a job at Mervyn's, which was one-third the salary. So I talked to my dad. He worked at General Mills. He said, "Of all the great leaders I've met, almost all started in that industry when they were young and learned every aspect of the business. Almost everyone started at the bottom."

    The easy choice would have been to go to an investment bank. There was status and compensation and instant gratification. My dad said, "You can do that, but in a short period of time you're going to be wanting something else to do. If you're going to be significant at something, you've got to learn it from the ground up. There's no shortcut to success."

    Retailing was fast moving, like playing a sport. I could have taken a job in strategic planning at Dayton Hudson [parent company of Mervyn's at the time], but I said, "No. I want to learn the business," and that's why I started in Glendale [as a store management trainee]. Today the same lessons apply to everything I've done, whether it's good design at Target or building the Apple Store. There are no shortcuts.

    I remember when Apple went through a tough period. I didn't feel the pain as much as Steve [Jobs] did. When you are in the leadership position, the tough times can be much more difficult, because your job is really to shield your team through that, to keep them from taking shortcuts. We are building J.C. Penney for the next century. It's not about the quarter or the year.

斯考特·格里菲斯

Zipcar董事长兼首席执行官

    我是癌症康复者。十五年前，我一结束与医生的通话。获悉自己组织切片检查的结果后（格里菲斯被诊断为2期霍奇金淋巴瘤），我给我哥哥打了电话，告诉他结果不好，我需要做9个月的辐射和化疗。他说：“我知道你能战胜病魔，完全康复。”但“你必须想想，经过所有这些后，你希望自己成为什么样的人。想想等到这一切结束的时候，你已经是另外一个人了。”当一位家庭成员说出这些时，至少就我而言，我是非常认真地对待的。这个人对我的了解，几乎无人能及。如果你比较敏感，你可能会说，“我现在这样有什么不好吗？为什么等这一切结束时，我要变个样?”但我的理解是，这是一件改变人生的事情。一个人在很年轻的时候就被推到了悬崖的边缘，在这之后，你想怎样实现你的人生？

    当时我住在波士顿，在从贝恩资本（Bain）剥离出来的Parthenon Group做咨询工作，单身，大概35岁。像大多数非常注重职业发展道路的人一样，我已经上完了商学院，我的职业道路从各方面来看都非常完美。我没有回家，去了阿斯彭滑雪。我想，当时我的人生确实没有什么使命感。哥哥一语惊醒梦中人。我把它写了下来，越来越笃信，自此人生应该完全不同。

    它敦促我建立了一套个人的核心价值观。我开始关注周围，自问我身边的这些人有我这样的激情吗？有我这样的价值观吗？我开始自问，我加入俱乐部或做这些事情的理由——我先看什么文章，为什么？我开始进行内心的反省，决定离开咨询行业。我希望回到脚踏实地的工作。我总是对交通、科技和城市有着一股激情。我在匹兹堡长大，我上中学时这个城市简直是个灾难。我开始对“城市为什么会变成现在的样子”这个问题非常感兴趣。我想，我能不能找一份工作，融汇我对科技、对颠覆性商业模式以及对城市的激情，将所有这些都放到里面？当我进入Zipcar时，我感觉这就是那份工作。就是我要找的工作。这与我哥哥的建议或许是殊途同归。当我从癌症中康复时，我工作以外的很多事情都已经发生了变化。但将激情与职业联系起来，一旦你真正这样做，这个信念就变成了你的生命。这是为什么每天早上我依然精神抖擞地从床上爬起来。

Scott Griffith

Chairman and CEO of Zipcar

    I'm a cancer survivor. Fifteen years ago, I had just gotten off the phone with the doctor who did the biopsy. [Griffith was diagnosed with stage 2 Hodgkin's lymphoma.] I called my brother and told him the results were bad and that I would need nine months of radiation and chemotherapy. He said, "I know you'll fight this and you'll survive." But, he said, "you have to think about the kind of person you want to be when you're done with this experience. Think about coming out of this a different person than you go in." When a family member says something like that, at least in my case, I take it a lot more seriously. Here's someone who knows me like almost no one else. If you have thin skin, you might say, "What's wrong with me now -- why do I need to be a different person when I'm done with this?" But the way I internalized it was, This is a life-changing event, you've been forced at a very young age to go to the edge of the abyss, and what do you want to do with your life after this?

    I was living in Boston at the time, doing consulting at a Bain spinoff called the Parthenon Group. I was single, in my mid-thirties. Like most people really focused on a professional track, I had been through business school and by all measures was having a pretty good career path. I was skiing in Aspen instead of flying home. I don't think there was really any mission to my life. What my brother said to me was this lightning-rod moment. I remember writing it down, and it just started to sink in more and more that life should be different after this.

    It forced me to develop a set of my own personal core values. I just started looking around. I asked myself, Do the people around me share my passions? My values? I started asking myself the reason I joined clubs or the things I read -- what article was I reading first and why? I started doing some soul searching and decided to leave consulting. I wanted to get back to real jobs. I always had a passion for transportation and technology and cities. I grew up in Pittsburgh, and when I was going to high school the city was a disaster. I became very interested in how cities get that way. I thought, What if I can find a job that would combine my passions for technology and game-changing business models and cities and put that all together? So when I stumbled into Zipcar, I was like, This is the job. This is the one I'm looking for. It sort of doubled back to that comment my brother made. There are a lot of things outside my work that have changed since I went through the cancer, but this idea that you connect your passions to your career -- when you truly do that, it becomes your life. It's why I still pop out of bed every morning.

翠西·瑞斯

时尚设计师

    我们生活在一个用完就扔的时代，很少有东西是为了长久留存而造。如今，我们必须比以往任何时候都要重视品质，因为它已经如此稀缺。在我们的主要办公室，我们有一台几年前就坏了的洗衣机，原因是齿轮融化了，它们无法承担所需的任务。当我开办自己的服装公司，那时我24岁，父亲告诉我说，如果你的公司不提供最好的品质，它就没法取得成功。

Tracy Reese

Fashion designer

    We live in a throwaway society. So little is built to last. Now more than ever, we have to value great quality because it's so scarce. At our main office we have a washing machine that broke down a few years ago because the gears melted. The gears couldn't handle the action that it was built for. My dad told me, when I was just starting my clothing company, when I was 24, that if your business isn't the best quality, it will not succeed.

未来主义者，发明家，作家

    1978年，施乐（Xerox）开始对Kurzweil Computer Products感兴趣，并对我的公司进行了投资。1979年，他们表示有意收购。他们感兴趣的是扫描和文字识别技术。当时施乐是一家打印机公司，他们有很多的产品：复印机、打印机，都是将电脑化信息转录到纸张上。我们有一项技术，能反其道而行之。当时我还没有那样的理念：我真正的业务是发明技术，打造业务，然后出售。我的态度是：这是我的公司，我的职责是创立它，打造成功，然后可能卖给施乐。但我的首席财务官哈瑞·乔治称：“你真正擅长的是发明新的技术，带给这个世界。但有其他人，可以把它带到全球市场。你应该卖给施乐。”

    我接受了他的建议，施乐在这个基础上打造了一家全球领先的企业。由此，我进入了这样的模式。这促使我重新定义自己的业务范畴：做一位发明家，发明突破性的技术，然后卖给大公司，在那里这些技术真正能够发扬光大。我已经卖了五家公司，现在所有这些公司都还在。比如，Kurzweil Music现在是现代（Hyundai）的一部分。这些公司能以更好的方式将它带给全球市场，这是我们这样一家小型合成制造商办不到的事情。

Ray Kurzweil

Futurist, inventor, author

    In 1978, Xerox became interested in Kurzweil Computer Products and made an investment in my company. In 1979 they expressed interest in acquiring it. They were interested in the scanning and character-recognition technology. Xerox was in the printer business, and they had a lot of machines: copiers, printers that took computerized information and put it out onto paper. We had a technology that could go in the other direction. At the time I did not have the philosophy that the real business I was in was creating technologies, creating a business from them, and selling them. My attitude was: This is my company, and my role is to create it and build it up and maybe make it into Xerox. But my CFO, Harry George, said, "What you're really good at is creating a new technology and bringing it into the world. But there are other people who can bring it to a world market. You should sell to Xerox."

    I took the advice, and Xerox created a world-leading company out of it. That got me into this paradigm. It caused me to redefine the business I'm in, which is being an inventor and creating breakthrough technologies and then finding the right home in a larger company where they can really thrive. I've sold five companies, and all of them have not disappeared into the woodwork. Kurzweil Music, for example, is now part of Hyundai. They were able to bring it to a world market in a much better way than we could as a small synthesizer manufacturer.

经济学家，作家

    1960年当我进入芝加哥大学（the University of Chicago）时，我接触到了一些进行新兴金融研究的教授。那时金融还算不上是一门学科，正在诞生之中，而我恰巧就到了它正在诞生的地方。因此，我有点着迷，当时学校里每个人都感兴趣。

    第一年，我学了门中级统计，授课教授是哈瑞·罗伯茨。当时我21岁。他和我很像——他喜欢一切体育运动，是位跑步健将。我在本科时做过很多统计工作，早就在和数据打交道。因此当我开始学时，就比其他人领先了很多。但我从哈瑞那里学到的是理念。他教给我的是对统计的态度，直到现在我也还是坚持这样的态度。

    正统的统计学是给出一个假设，然后检验。哈瑞总是说，你的标准不应该是接受、还是否决这个假设，而是能从数据中了解到什么。最好是能用这些数据强化你对世界的描述。这一直是我研究的指导明灯。应该利用市场数据更好地了解市场，而不是说这个或那个假设是真是假。没有一个模型是严格意义上正确的。真正的标准应该是：当我完成时，是比刚开始时更了解市场了吗？我当老师的49年来，我也一直把哈瑞的建议教给学生们。

Eugene Fama

Economist, author

    When I came to the University of Chicago in 1960, I was exposed to professors who were involved in the nascent subject of finance, which didn't exist as a discipline at the time. It was all being born, and it just happened that I had come to the place where that birth was happening. So I kind of got into it because everybody there was interested in it.

    In my first year I took an intermediate statistics class with a professor named Harry Roberts. I was 21 at the time. He was very much like me -- he was into all kinds of sports, and he was a runner. I had done a lot of statistics work as an undergraduate and had already worked with data, so I was pretty advanced when I started. But what I learned from Harry was a philosophy. He gave me an attitude toward statistics that has stuck with me ever since.

    With formal statistics, you say something -- a hypothesis -- and then you test it. Harry always said that your criterion should be not whether or not you can reject or accept the hypothesis, but what you can learn from the data. The best thing you can do is use the data to enhance your description of the world. That has been the guiding light of my research. You should use market data to understand markets better, not to say this or that hypothesis is literally true or false. No model is ever strictly true. The real criterion should be: Do I know more about markets when I'm finished than I did when I started? Harry's lesson is one that I've passed on to my students over the 49 years that I've been a teacher.

超级天使投资人

    在帮阿尔托斯（Altos Computer）上市后，共同创始人戴维·杰克逊和我坐了下来，回顾我们走过的路，我们如何打造了这家当时美国增长最快的一家公司。我们能够做到这样，是因为我们和客户建立了私人关系。他从一开始就说：“重点不在于你懂什么，而在于你认识谁。”从此，我一直相信做生意，一切的一切就是关系，绝不应轻视这一点。我们要了解客户，了解他们的家人。我们签下的最大一笔交易是和Control Data Corp.公司。我们和这家公司的首席执行官一起吃过饭，一起去看球赛，我们真的成了朋友。如今，我和这些人还是朋友。

    我依然听从戴维的建议。我们的投资有赖于我们拥有硅谷最大的人脉网络之一。当我们为所投资公司解决一个大问题时，我会对它的首席执行官说：“重点不在于你懂什么，而在于你认识什么人。”

Ron Conway

Superangel

    As we took Altos Computer public, co-founder David Jackson and I sat down to reflect on how we had managed to build what at the time was one of the fastest-growing companies in America. We did it because we formed personal relationships with our customers. He started using the phrase "It's not what you know, but who you know." Since then I've always believed that everything in business is about relationships, and you should never take them lightly. We got to know our customers. We got to know their families. The biggest deal we ever signed was with a company called Control Data Corp. We took the CEO to dinner, we took him to ball games, we truly became friends. I am still friends with these people.

    I still use David's advice. My investing is based on having one of the biggest networks in Silicon Valley. When we solve a big problem for one of our portfolio companies, I say to the CEO, "It's not what you know. It's who you know."

    我职场生涯的初期碰到过一位很强硬的老板。她从心底里是为我好，但她非常苛刻。有一次她把我拉到一边说：“有时我感觉你根本完成不了项目，总是会留下一些尾巴。你开始做得不错，但总是不能善始善终。”天啊，这就是她对我的印象，怎么会这样！我的第一直觉是她错了——我完成了。最好的建议有时也是最令人痛苦的建议，你必须信赖给出建议的这个人。挨了批评就得问问自己，这个意见是否中肯。就上面这个例子而言，它让我那么难受，是因为我的老板是对的。这次谈话后，我参加了专门的课程，学习我欠缺的技能，这样我再也没有借口不完成项目了。如今，在我心底里，我总是自问：“我越过终点线了吗？”

Beth Comstock

SVP and CMO of General Electric

    Very early in my career, I had a tough boss. She had my best interests at heart, but she was a pretty critical person. She once pulled me aside and said, "Sometimes I feel like you just can't finish things. You start well, but you don't finish." Boy, I hated that that was her impression of me. My first instinct was, She's wrong -- I finish things. But the best advice is often the most painful advice, and you have to trust the person who's giving it to you. When you get criticism, ask yourself if it's relevant. In this instance the reason it hurt so much was that my boss was right. After our conversation, I took special classes to give me skills that I didn't quite have, so I couldn't use anything as an excuse to not finish a project. Now, in the back of my mind, I'm always asking, "Did I cross the finish line?"

Spanx创始人

    我记得小时候常和父亲坐在饭桌前，父亲会问我那个礼拜有什么事情没做好。如果我参选校园剧失败，他会和我击掌庆祝。他总是鼓励我去失败。当时我没有意识到这个建议将在多大程度上定义我的未来，影响我对失败的定义。作为一个创业家，我发现太多人不去追求自己的想法，是因为他们害怕或恐惧失败。父亲教给我的是，失败会带给你下一份精彩。这是与传统截然相反的家教，但如今我知道如果我不曾失败，就不会有我的今天。我曾经试图成为一名律师，但参加法学院入学考试两次都没过。像这样的失败还有很多，它们告诉我，生命中的一些重大的失利只是把我们推到了另一条道路上而已。

Sara Blakely

Founder of Spanx

    I used to sit at the dining room table as a kid and my dad would ask me what I failed at that week. If I tried out for a school play and didn't get it, he would high-five me. He always encouraged me to fail. I didn't realize at the time how much this advice would define not only my future, but my definition of failure. I have realized as an entrepreneur that so many people don't pursue their idea because they were scared or afraid of what could happen. My dad taught me that failing simply just leads you to the next great thing. It was pretty unconventional parenting, but I realize now that if I hadn't failed, I wouldn't be where I am today. I tried to be a lawyer and failed the LSATs twice. It was one of many tests that showed me how some of the biggest failures in our lives just nudge us into another path.

戴维·博伊斯

超级律师，Boies Schiller & Flexner的创始人

    “先听再说，”我13岁时父亲就对我说。“任何值得对话的人都值得被倾听。”好的建议，真正被采纳往往需要一段时间。我可以理解，如果我想了解某一个课题，需要注意聆听老师或任何有专门知识的人讲述。但我过去总是认为，我比跟我谈话的人懂得更多（有时确实是这样）。

    后来，我逐渐意识到几乎每个人都会有一些知识、真知灼见或经历是我所不曾有过的，或者可以说，有些东西，即便说的不对，也能触发我一天不曾有过的思考或想法。

    即便我只想教导、说服或诱惑他们，倾听依然重要。当我注意倾听时，人们也更愿意听我在说什么。

David Boies

Superlawyer, founder of Boies Schiller & Flexner

    "Try to listen before you speak," my father told me when I was 13. "Anyone who's worth talking to is worth listening to." It was for some time hard advice to take onboard. I could understand listening to a teacher, or anyone with special knowledge, about a subject I was trying to learn. But I often thought I knew more than the person I was speaking with (and occasionally I did).

    Over time I came to understand that almost everyone knows something or has some insight or experience I do not -- or can say something that, even if wrong, triggers a thought or idea I might not otherwise have.

    Even if my only interest in someone was to teach, persuade, or seduce them, listening was still important. People I listen to are more willing to listen to me.

科罗拉多州州长

    我的母亲两次丧偶，靠自己养大了四个孩子。她非常节约，什么针线活都自己做。她把用过的锡纸和保鲜膜洗干净了放在冰箱门上，反复使用。她非常好胜，经常告诉我们：“你不能控制游戏或人生中发生什么，但你可以控制自己的反应——永远不要放弃。”

    1986年我作为一名地质学家下岗了，这是上一次真正的大衰退，我失业了整整30个月。凭着一股不放弃的精神和节俭意识，我重新打起精神，准备开一家啤酒馆。有好几次，我们差一点就要放弃了，因为筹不到钱。而且非常讽刺的是，就连我自己的母亲也不愿投资。她说：“谁愿意在一家啤酒馆里吃饭？”我感觉我已经和每个可能的投资者谈过话，我们已经被32家银行拒绝，但她的回答使得我不得继续去找银行，不得不继续去找朋友，下一个可能的投资者。最后我们的啤酒馆开张了，1987年签下了一份租约。当时的租金是每年每平方英尺1美元。除了水、电工程，装修什么我们都自己来，1988年底开业了。为了降低成本，我们都是买的二手的饭店设备和桌椅，我们创造了自己的文化。首获成功后，我们又在其他约15个地方开了啤酒馆，在全美多个老城区。这样的不放弃和节俭文化确实帮助建立了一个小小的王国。

John Hickenlooper

Governor of Colorado

    My mom was twice widowed and raised four kids by herself. She was relentlessly frugal and sewed everything herself. She would wash tinfoil and Saran Wrap and tape it to the refrigerator door so she could reuse it. She was very competitive, and frequently told us, "You can't always control what happens to you in a game or in life, but you can control how you respond -- you should never quit."

    After I got laid off as a geologist in 1986 -- the last really big recession -- I was out of work for almost 30 months. That combination of persistence and frugality really had a lot to do with picking myself back up and trying to start a brewpub. There were a couple of times when we just about quit because we couldn't raise the money, and, ironically, my own mother wouldn't invest. She'd say, "Who wants to have dinner in a brewpub?" I felt like I'd talked to every potential investor, and we'd been turned down by 32 banks, but her advice forced me to go to that one more bank. It forced me to go to that one friend of a friend, that next potential investor. We finally got open, signed a lease in 1987. Back then the rent was $1 per square foot per year. We did everything but the plumbing and electricity ourselves and got open in the end of 1988. By keeping our costs down -- we bought all used restaurant equipment and furniture -- we created a culture within our business. And that restaurant really took off, and we opened brewpubs in about 15 other places, in historic downtowns all over the country. That kind of combined culture of persistence and frugality really helped create a miniature empire.