他是研究商业战略的首席教授。她是大放异彩的都会奇幻小说作家，读者是十几岁的青少年。他们在一起组成了一对不可思议的父女档。

    69岁的理查德•鲁梅尔特是父亲，他从1976年起就任教于加州大学洛杉矶分校的安德森管理学院（UCLA Anderson School of Management）。他的新书《战略优劣谈》（Good Strategy/Bad Strategy）入选了《金融时报》（Financial Times）与高盛年度最佳商业图书奖的决胜名单。39岁的卡珊德拉•克莱尔（原名：朱迪斯•鲁梅尔特）自从2004年来一直在创作系列小说《凡人圣物》（Mortal Instruments）。之前的10年，她为娱乐杂志和小报撰稿，有时也在网上发表同人小说。这套系列小说以纽约为背景，讲述勇斗恶魔的Nephilim（又称暗影猎人）的冒险故事。克莱尔已经卖出超过1,000万本书，最近还签下价值1,000万美元的两个出版协议。根据系列改编的第一部电影《凡人圣物：白骨之城》（City of Bones）正在多伦多拍摄，明年夏天将由索尼影视公司（Sony Pictures）推出。

    今年夏天，鲁梅尔特和克莱尔在《财富》杂志（Fortune）的办公室接受了戴维•A.卡普兰的采访，倾谈创造、营销和父母影响。下面是对话的剪辑版本。

    理查德，您是知名学者，您的著作销量数以万计。卡珊德拉，你在通俗读物的某个细分市场也是名声显赫，销量更大。这两个职业选择之间存在什么联系吗？

    鲁梅尔特：都是遗传（大笑）。她是我的骄傲。她太优秀了。

    克莱尔：我父亲只相信自然选择，不相信后天培养。

    他在你13岁的时候也这么想吗？

    鲁梅尔特：她13岁的时候，我觉得遗传不起作用，至少从我这边没起作用。

    克莱尔：我觉得父亲对我的职业有巨大影响。作为艺术家，不管是同行、经纪人、出版商，还是社会，大家都鼓励你不要去考虑金钱、战略，不要去想着如何规划职业，如何树立自己的品牌，而是认为我们就应该专注于艺术本身。

    于是，你的父亲让你把自己当作一个公司来经营？

    克莱尔：对！我成长的过程中一直在听他探讨战略和管理。当然我也读过他写的书。他一再跟我强调，有战略的人必然胜过没有战略的人。所以不管遇到什么情况，我的第一反应就是问：“那么，有什么战略吗？”对一个作家而言，这很不寻常。

    鲁梅尔特：有一种典型的失败战略，就是有野心但没计划。朱迪读了那本书稿的某个章节。几周之后，她告诉我：“有次我的出版商说，‘我们对你的下一本书充满期望’。”她接茬说：“那么你们有什么打算……？”

    克莱尔：我们在董事会议室谈话。出版商【西蒙舒斯特（Simon & Schuster）】说：“我们计划提高你的知名度，增加销量。”我就问：“你们有什么具体的计划来实现这一点吗？”他们回答：“呃，我们会让这本书得到更多关注，多卖几本。”

    他们没有计划少卖几本？

    鲁梅尔特：他们只提出目标，而不是行动计划。她对此分得很清楚。

    He's a leading professor of business strategy. She's a wildly successful author of urban fantasy novels for teenagers. Together, they're one of the more unusual father-daughter pairings.

    Richard Rumelt, 69, is the dad. He's been at the UCLA Anderson School of Management since 1976. His Good Strategy/Bad Strategy was shortlisted for the 2011 Financial Times and Goldman Sachs Business Book of the Year. Cassandra Clare (born: Judith Rumelt), 39, has been writing the Mortal Instruments series since 2004—following a decade of writing for entertainment magazines and tabloids, and occasional posting of fan fiction online. Set in modern New York City, the series centers on the adventures of the demon-fighting Nephilim (also called Shadowhunters). Clare has sold more than 10 million books and recently signed two multi-book deals for $10 million. The first Mortal Instruments movie, City of Bones, is shooting in Toronto and will be out next summer from Sony Pictures (SNE).

    Rumelt and Clare talked to David A. Kaplan at Fortune's offices this summer about creativity, marketing, and parental influence. Below is an edited transcript of their conversation.

    Richard, you're a well-known academic and have sold tens of thousands of books. Cassandra, you're a well-known author for a certain segment of the mass market—and have sold even more books. Is there a connection between the two careers?

    RUMELT: It's all genetics [laughter]. I'm very proud of her. She's blossomed fantastically.

    CLARE: My father is a big believer in nature over nurture.

    Did he think that way when you were 13?

    RUMELT: When she was 13, I thought it wasn't genetics—or at least not my side of the family.

    CLARE: I think that there's an enormous amount that my father has influenced in my career. We as artists are actively encouraged—by other authors, your agent, publisher, and society—not to think about money, strategy, how to manage your career, how to create a brand, because we're supposed to focus on the art.

    So, your father helped you to think of yourself as, well, a corporation?

    CLARE: Yes! I grew up listening to him talk about strategy and management. I've read his book obviously. And he's always pressed upon me that the person who had a strategy is going to win out over the person who doesn't. So when I come into a situation, my immediate question is, "Well, what's the strategy?" And I think that's unusual for a writer.

    RUMELT: One kind of bad strategy is where people have aspirations, but no plans. And Judy read one of my chapters on that in draft form. A couple weeks later, she told me, "Well, my publisher said, 'We have high hopes for your next book.'" And she said, "And you're going to – ?"

    CLARE: We were in the boardroom. The publisher [Simon & Schuster] said, "Our plan is to raise the profile and increase the sales." And I said, "What are your concrete plans to achieve that?" They said, "Well, we're going to get the book more attention and sell more copies."

    As opposed to a plan to sell fewer copies?

    RUMELT: They were naming goals instead of actions. She gets that sensibility of distinguishing between the two.

    克莱尔：我要他们在一两周之内拿出一个行动清单：广告、印数、特别促销、目标店铺，甚至像好市多（Costco）那样的三线书店。而对于塔吉特（Target，美国仅次于沃尔玛的连锁零售店——译注），我想知道我们是否在货架图上。他们目瞪口呆地看着我，好像看外星人一样。“你怎么会知道这些名词啊！”……但他们最后按我的要求去做了。

    理查德，我不敢说我懂商业战略，因为那纯粹是班门弄斧。但如果您管理一家公司，应该也会要有某种整体战略吧？

    鲁梅尔特：你想得很对。

    但是？

    鲁梅尔特：美国的国家安全战略包括12点。那是奥巴马总统的杰作。其中一点是：“我们在教育上落后了。”因此，我们的国家安全战略就包括：（1）改革公立学校；（2）达到全球最高的大学毕业率。

    您是在说反话。

    鲁梅尔特：真荒谬。首先，这些问题难道属于国家安全的范畴吗？答案是否定的。其次，没有找出我们在教育上落后的原因。如果不了解问题的本质，就无法解决问题。培养更多的大学毕业生，或者有更多人学习艺术史就能解决我们的国家安全问题吗？这就是在政府的最高层被当作是战略的玩意，很多公司也一样。只不过公司的口号更空洞：“我们要成为某某领域的领头羊！”

    有没有想过写一部小说，讲一讲公司秘闻和战略无能？

    克莱尔：可以，但一定得有人在董事会会议上被人谋杀。

    鲁梅尔特：还得有色情和暴力。

    朱迪，你已经卖出多少本书了？

    克莱尔：超过1,000万。

    看来J.K.罗琳这一两年还不用太担心？

    克莱尔：说起销量，没人拼得过J.K.罗琳。出版界有个规矩：千万别和《哈利•波特》（Harry Potter）比，因为那是可遇而不可求的奇迹。

    鲁梅尔特：就像你没法和史蒂夫•乔布斯比一样。沃尔特•艾萨克森为他写的自传棒极了。但你还会忽视[乔布斯的]战略，这个战略有几个非常简单的元素。他首先想做的就是摆脱微软（Microsoft）和英特尔（Intel）的束缚。唯一的途径就是采用移动平台，不用英特尔的芯片，也不用微软的操作系统。为了进入移动领域，他首先从音乐入手，然后进军电话，最后就是（平板电脑）。

    你们俩会讨论朱迪出书的战略吗？

    克莱尔：我确实和父亲谈过一些创业的想法。我们刚刚讨论过数字出版的问题。我很想让出版商在线上免费发表系列的第一本书，因为我相信赔本赚吆喝。这个系列一共七本书。如果你免费发布第一本，人们就可能被吸引，想看后续的故事的人就会购买。就是打广告而已。父亲还说：“这种手法不是有个模式吗？”

    鲁梅尔特：（视频游戏）《毁灭战士》（Doom）的模式正正好。

    那你真的打算那样做吗？

    克莱尔：出版界对免费送书非常抵制。我会努力争取的……西蒙舒斯特有一点好，就是这么些年来，他们都愿意倾听、尝试我的想法。有些已经取得了巨大成功，而很多思路是通过和父亲的交谈来理清的。

    CLARE: I asked them to come back in a week or two with a list of things they were going to do—advertising, print run, special promotions, third-tier stores like Costco (COST) they were targeting. For Target (TGT), I asked if we were on the planogram. They've looked on me as if I were an alien. "You're not supposed to know these words!"…But they did what I asked.

    Richard, I don't profess to understand the field of business strategy because it sounds redundant. If you're running something, don't you have to have some overall strategy?

    RUMELT: You would think so.

    But?

    RUMELT: The United States has a national security strategy. It has 12 points. President Obama created it. One point is "We've fallen behind in education." Therefore, part of the national security strategy is to (a) reform public schools and (b) have the highest percentage of college graduates in the world.

    You have some snark in your tone.

    RUMELT: This is absurd. First of all, why is this a national security issue? It's not. Second, there's no diagnosis of why have we fallen behind in education. Unless you understand the nature of the problem, you can't solve it. Is having more college graduates, more people studying art history going to solve our national security problem? That's what passes for strategy in the highest levels of government and in many, many corporations. Corporations would be even more vacuous. "We want to be the company that is the go-to company for whatever!"

    Is there a novel to be written about intrigue at companies and their inability to strategize?

    CLARE: Only if someone was murdered during one of the board meetings.

    RUMELT: There would have to be some sex and violence.

    Judy, how many books have you sold?

    CLARE: Over 10 million.

    So J.K. Rowling is secure for another year or two?

    CLARE: Nobody sells books like J.K. Rowling. We have a rule in publishing: Never compare anything to Harry Potter because it's like lightning in a bottle.

    RUMELT: It's like comparing things to Steve Jobs. Walter Isaacson's book is just brilliant. But you can miss what [Jobs'] strategy was, which had a couple of very simple elements. The first thing he wanted to do is get out from under Microsoft and Intel. And the only way he could do that is go to mobile platforms, where it wasn't the Intel chip and the Microsoft operating system. And to get into that space, he went with this music thing and then with the phone thing and then with the [tablet] thing.

    Do you the two of you discuss strategy for Judy's books?

    CLARE: I do talk to my father about things I can do as an entrepreneur. We just had an interesting conversation about digital publishing. And I have a strong desire to have the publisher give away my first book in the series online because I believe it can be a loss leader. There are seven books in the series. If you give away the first for free, hopefully people will want the rest and buy those. It's advertising. My dad asked, "Isn't there a model for this kind of thing?"

    RUMELT: The [videogame] Doom model worked fantastically.

    So are you going to do that?

    CLARE: There's a big resistance in publishing to the idea of giving away books. I'm going to fight for it…I do think one great thing with Simon & Schuster is that over the years they've been open to ideas I've generated. Some have been enormously successful, and a lot have been ideas that I've sorted out by talking to my dad.

    鲁梅尔特：晚餐的时候朱迪跟我讲起这个，我就告诉她，我在1985年写过一篇关于软件盗版的研究论文。对于某些类型的软件，有人盗版也许更好，因为那样会建立起用户群，从而培育来自公司的需求。公司不会用盗版软件……我在1981年建议某家公司免费赠送他们开发的数据库软件，结果那家公司的CFO看着我说：“天啦，这个软件售价700美元。要送出1万份，你看我们会损失多少钱。”就得和这种目光短浅的想法做斗争。

    你可以去做毒品贩子和剃须刀厂家的咨询顾问了。

    鲁梅尔特：他们（精于此道），并不需要咨询。CFO们倒是可以听听我的建议。

    克莱尔：我又想起我和父亲探讨过的一个想法。我的第四本书叫《堕落天使之城》（ City of Fallen Angels），出书的时候我们（在出版公司）召开营销会议。他们对实体书的销量不断下滑不无担心。我说：“我们试试新想法，在书中增加一些在电子书里无法得到的东西。”我们在封底附上了一封信，由书中的一个角色写给另一个角色。看起来就像真的信件，而且还有蜡印，可供粉丝收藏。而在Kindle（亚马逊的电子书——译注）上就无法找到这样可以拿在手中的实物。

    后来呢？

    克莱尔：我们【在邦诺书店（Barnes & Noble）】进行尝试，获得了巨大成功。他们追加了订单，结果还是一售而空……我正好应邀在邦诺的董事会会议上演讲。邦诺的CEO对我说：“你知道吗，你们在《堕天使之城》上的营销战略真精彩。大获成功之后，我们还要求其他作者跟进。我们把这个叫做《堕落天使之城》策略。”

    理查德会在电影里客串吗？

    克莱尔：不会，但电影里确实有一个邪恶老爸的角色。

    鲁梅尔特：我宁愿自己拍电影。其实我已经开始一个计划，想和CEO讨论战略问题，录制采访视频。

    克莱尔：我特别要求让我的猫咪出镜。

    RUMELT: I told Judy over lunch when she mentioned this that I wrote a research paper back in 1985 about software piracy and how for certain kinds of software it's probably better to let people steal it because it builds the user base, which then creates corporate demand. Corporations aren't going to steal it…The CFO of one company I advised in 1981 to give away copies of a database program looked at me and said, "Jeez, we're going to sell this for $700 times 10,000. Look how much we would lose." That's the kind of myopic logic you're fighting.

    You could be advisor to drug dealers and razor-blade manufacturers.

    RUMELT: They don't need that advice. It's CFOs who do.

    CLARE: I'm thinking of another thing that I also ran by my dad. When my fourth book came out, which was called City of Fallen Angels, we were having our marketing meeting [at the publisher]. And they were saying they were concerned about dwindling print sales for all books. And I said, "Let's something experimental—put something in the books you can't get in ebooks. In the back of the book we'll affix a letter written by one of the characters to another character. It'll look like a letter, with a little wax seal, a thing fans will want to collect. And as an analogue object you can hold in your hand, it's something you can't pull out of a Kindle.

    So?

    CLARE: We tried it [at Barnes & Noble]. It was hugely successful. They had to reorder. Eventually they ran out of them… I was just at the board of directors meeting for Barnes & Noble (BKS) as a speaker. The CEO said to me, "You know, that thing you guys did for City of Fallen Angels was a brilliant piece of strategy. It was so successful for us that we've now gone and asked dozens of other authors to do the same thing. We call it City of Fallen Angels treatment."

    Will Richard have a cameo in the movie?

    CLARE: No, but there is an evil dad in the movie.

    RUMELT: I'd rather have my own film. I'm actually beginning a project of trying to video CEOs about certain strategy issues.

    CLARE: I have asked specifically that they include my cat.